B09 DNA (U152) R1b-BY4179: Virginia Colony c1650

There is a FamilyTreeDNA R1b-Z192 SNP Pack that covers all the branching from R1b-Z192 down to the current terminal SNP of R1b-BY4179. This SNP Pack is the most economical yDNA SNP test option if your yDNA STR values are matching strongly in this group and you wish to verify your SNP is also matching strongly. If your SNP Pack results match, you can simply tag along with the other BigY tests in this group and avoid ordering BigY yourself.

Historically, this had been a single member study group with Malcolm's line. After a new match showed up to Malcolm (Horace Hoard), we recruited testers from the Other Branches subgroup of John Hord and had a number of individuals match and join our project in late 2015. They are all showing a strong, nearer-term STR match to Malcolm that is verified with deep SNP testing. And hence, this is the first super-grouping of previously separate Family Branch pages due to showing a shared DNA match. Once the genealogy catches up to show the combined family branch, we can better name this super-group encompassing the seemingly disparate lines. Something Malcolm, Vernon and others are hard at work on.

This is also the first group with strong DNA evidence to suggest many other surnames have Patrilines in common. Not derived, variant or deviant but stark surname changes likely due to an NPE or purposeful change to a spouses surname or similar. Whatever the reason, the people with surnames of Munday, Carver and Cox as well as Elliston, Monroe and Boren are in this group. They are all clearly Patriline relatives to the existing group members of John Hord and Richard Hoare; both groups who currently have genealogical work a hundred or so years previous to these others. Most have done deep STR testing already; some still need confirming SNP testing. But based on past experience with this group, all will likely prove true DNA matches.

ySTR Modal

The North American John Hord descendant testers and related surnames are a very tight knit haplotype. That is, their STR values are very strongly matched at all levels of FTDNA testing (37, 67 and 111 markers). A slightly more distant but still close match is Malcolm's Richard Hoare. Deep SNP testing confirms these family branches are related in a nearer term genealogical time frame and not just the result of a collapsing of previously branched STR Haplotypes. Initial analysis shows they likely share an ancestor in the 15th or 16th century. The current implication is that the North American based lines are likely all descended from the same or closely related ancestors. And that those ancestors are then related some time earlier to Malcolm's line of Patriline ancestors. Hence how and why we derived the surname lineage chart in the family branch page.

There are a number of DNA testers with the surnames Munday, Carver, Monroe and Elliston who trace their ancestry to the late 1700's Virginia. Either ancestors near the Shady Grove plantation or to others that share a surname with others near there. Significant is how tight their STR values are to the John Hord group even at 111 marker values. This is causing some exploration into a possible surname change in their line (such as taking the spouses name or a neighbor taking in an orphaned child) to explain these surname lines to be in the same biological patriline. None of these researchers are able to get earlier in time than John Hord on his Shady Grove plantation. We need them to do deep SNP testing to make sure this is not just coincidence from converging STR Haplotype. Sorry, but more detail is only available to the testers themselves in the projects member pages.

ySNP Haplogroup

      yFull and yTree are now pretty much in concordance in terms of showing a terminal haplogroup with 30+ unique SNPs for the B09DNA BIgY testers. FTDNA has a slightly different structure still. To assist with seeing this structure and concordance, we show each haplogroup in the near-branching phylogenetic tree starting with the node R1b-Z192 which is a branch or so above the terminal haplogroup. The direct links to see these tree fragments, as they currently exist, are: yTree.net Z192 and yFull.com Z192. FTDNA does not have a useful public tree nor ability to link directly into their BigY Block Tree so you must rely on our captured images from their site here. We include both the traditional tree and the BigY Block Tree.

See the previous page for the explanation of how to get down to R1b-P312; an earlier major haplogroup to R1b-Z192 in the phylogenetic tree. The ISOGG tree (as late as early 2017) only takes R1b-P312 one step further to R1b-U152 as they have not expanded the markers for the branches below that. R1b-U152 is a main branch that used to be just below R1b-P312 in many of the trees (and still is in yFull). The experimental tree at yTree has defined a whole new set of branching before and below R1b-U152; which is shown in the row across the top of the R1b-Z192 Haplogroup image here. yTree shows the branching path from R1b-P312 to the terminal block R1b-BY4179 for this B09DNA group as: P312 > Z40481 > ZZ11/Z38841 > U152 > Z193 > Z192 > BY10448 > PF6656 > BY10444. But why is it a terminal of BY10444 and not R1b-BY4179 as given in the FTDNA project result pages? (Underlined SNPs are the ones added that do not exist in ISOGG yet.)

All BigY tested in B09DNA (the Hord, Hoare and Munday / Carver / Cox lines) are in a leaf block or terminal haplogroup designated by a large collection of SNPs unique to this haplogroup. The SNP V1404/BY10444 just happens to be the first yTree lists and so they label the block as such. Actually, it is FTDNA that (first) identified the haplogroup and named it with the SNP R1b-BY4179. If you look part way down the yTree block listing the SNP's that are in it, BY4179 is there. It was originally the only named SNP in the block by yTree but not the first. So the block went unnamed initially by yTree. Now that all three samples were submitted to yFull, yfull has created this new haplogoup (terminal block) also and, why naturally (?), named it by a different SNP in haplogroup: R-Y29879. We have not checked to see what SNP this corresponds to in the others' nomenclature. V1404/BY10444 is already in the yFull list of other unique SNPs for this block though.

Confusing? for sure. But just think of R1b-BY4179, R-Y29879 and R-BY10444 as different names for the same terminal haplogroup block (or node) in the phylogenetic tree. All three SNPs are in the block currently, along with around 40 others. The link directly to this terminal haplogroup is yTree R-BY10444 and yFull R-Y29879.

Some have been excited by the very recent estimated Time to Recent Common Ancestor (TRCA) designated in the yFull tree (less than 200 years). This is an educated guess and becomes so close to the recent times due to the large number of common variants (i.e. SNPs) shared between them. Little credence should be placed in this number until many more are tested. Notice that all the blocks above and around are claimed to have been formed 4400 years ago! A bit of a disconnect for sure.

Key to appreciate and understand is that the three family lines (Hoare, Hord, and Munday/Carver) are all in very strong concordance with their BigY SNP results. And their current terminal block has dozens of shared SNP variants and thus pulls them distinctly away from the other branches. Overall, the STR results are to be strongly believed and derived from a common ancestor. So now we can do a stronger look into the 111 (and even 400+) STR markers to understand the likely ancestors who introduced various changes in the haplotype.